The Green Section

10 Responses to “The Green Section”

  • Hi there,
    I just found this, and like what I’ve read so far a lot.
    I’m a third-party guy, too, although I’ve traditionally leaned a little more towards the Constitution Party than the Libertarian Party. As a moral and Christian man, I think that the government does have some responsibility in enforcing morality (thou shall not steal) in our society…and the Constitution Party reinforces that belief in a traditional Christian foundation for the country.
    I’m starting to become “on the fence,” though, regarding the role of government as moral authority…or as an authority for anything at all outside of what they are chartered to do in the Constitution. Maybe it’s just better for the government to just stay out of it entirely?
    What are your thoughts and/or the thoughts on this of most Libertarians?
    Merry Christmas!

  • Mr. Davidson,
    I am happy you found my site, and even happier that you like what you have read. I am also a supporter of the Constitution Party, and have even recommended it to some friends of mine that cannot quite get on board with certain aspects of the libertarian platform.
    I have, however, rectified my libertarian stances with my moral ones, particularly since I find that government involvement in personal belief systems is a danger to the government and to the faith it is involved with. Even if the government toed the line with the faith itself, the people end up following the faith because it is the law rather than having faith on their own. I certainly think the government should stay out of it entirely. I do’t know if my ideas apply to all or even most libertarians. I am sure most do not want government involved in religion in any way, but many have unfortunately based their aversion to government and religion on a despite for religion itself. As such, they have driven away a lot of potential libertarians who follow their faith.
    One of my goals has been to make sure that my faith and the faith of others is not in conflict with my political philosophy. I would love to continue this discussion, perhaps I will do a peice on it. I look forward to talking with you further.
    Cheers
    Jon Smith

  • PeterB in Indianapolis:

    You do not need religion or even “morality” to know that stealing from another is wrong. All you need is a fundamental understanding of Natural Rights. Every individual has a right to life, liberty, property, “pursuit of happiness”, etc.

    Stealing is the use of coercion or force to deprive another individual of his property, so it is a violation of individual rights. Doesn’t matter whether you are a libertarian, a constitutionalist, or whatever. The reason theft is wrong is that it violates individual rights.

  • BlackSand:

    I’m a borderline Constitution Party also. And Im currently trying to convince my ex to join that party, because I dont think she could ever be socially liberal.

    I go back and forth on social issues. Sometimes it just seems safer to be socially liberal. Prostitution and drugs, after being taxed, and requiring some STD checks for prostitutes, it would just seem safer to be socially liberal. But of course, drugs are booming, so will more people get involved in them, and hurt themselves if it were legalized? But what of the drug cartels? Dont they kill more than anyone that gets killed by drugs?

    All in all, a confusing question for some Christian libertarians. And like I said, i go back and forth. However, I am Mormon, and my church very vocally condemns same sex marriage. Sometimes I wish they didnt, but they do. And so I put my faith in the church before i put my faith in my own understanding of the world.

  • Well, I would say that safety is not the reason to pick a side in an issue :)
    Also, I would say do not sell yourself short on your understanding of the world. Not to say that if you disagree with a lot of people for whom you have great respect, you should check your own thinking closely, but there are many cases where the status quo of some very smart people was wrong, and an individual was right.

    It can be confusing for christian libertarians, but the key for me is to not confuse one’s morality or moral code with one’s support of law. Laws do not change the heart. The heart, the soul, is the important part, not the actions themselves. Evil acts are a symptom of an evil heart. Removing the actions does not fix the hearts of man, it simply suppresses the bad stuff. And the truly evil care nothing for laws anyway. Do not let your politics and your faith get too intertwined, faith should not be corrupted by it, nor should law be used to create faith or the appearance of it, lest evil lurk underneath and rot the society from within.

  • BlackSand:

    I understand very well what you mean. Like I said, it’s a touch issue for me. And I side with my church on that one issue because I believe my church is much more than just some smart guys who run an organization. But I still struggle with that choice, especially when I have a gay uncle that I greatly respect.

    “Safety is not the reason to pick a side on an issue.” Oh man, I love that. Makes me thing of the whole police state debate.

    I check my own understanding all the time. I regularly switch sides on issues just to see if I end up where I was before. I once had a brief stint with socialism, but because I never let myself get too involved with a certain philosophy, I kept testing my beliefs, and eventually fell into Libertarianism. The libertarian philosophy is a lot harder to combat than anything other I have tried. Im about to do some research into the police state debate just to see if I still end up anti-police state. The whole SB 1070 issue here in Arizona (Papers please law) has raised a lot of controversy, so I want to research the police state and national ID a bit.

    “Do not let your politics and your faith get too intertwined” And I agree with that. But I think Im going the other way with it. Youre thinking “Separation of church and state” and Im thinking “Don’t let politics get in the way of faith.”

  • So Jon,

    YOU are SUPPOSED to be a “Libertarian” ??

    A “LIVE * LET LIVE” person yet you spend paragraoha & paragraphs & paragraphse BITCHING about how I communicate!

    YOU SUCK AS A LIBERTARIAN!

    So You do not like it the way I am, well “TOUGH!”

    IT IS THE WAY I AM!

    And AFTER you have served our country as long as I have (10 years) SAVED as many lives as I have, (More than ten lives) Given as much Blood as I have (37 pints & it would be a more only cancer stopped mw.) ridden in a possie, fought dangerous fires, help break up as many fights and you STOPPED as many CRIMES in progress as I have, (6) THEN I MIGHT consider you have the RIGHT to TELL ME NOW TO LIVE!

    Until then you can kiss my old wrinked All American, Agnostic, Atheist, Activist Airborne ASS!

    And do not bother answering as I am done with you and your fellow Programmed Religious Robots.

  • Actually, in a libertarian society, speech is free from a legal standpoint. However, private property can have rules based on the property owner’s wishes. As long as the property owner is not forcing the person to be there (I am not forcing you to comment here) then that owner has the right to restrict what you say. I have not even done this, I am not restricting what you say. I am communicating my distaste for your attitude. That is MY free speech, and I have as much right to it as you have to yours, more so becuase this is my site. Go get your own site if you want to rant and call names and criticize and be a crotchety, grumpy old man.

    You have done many things that I respect, assuming you are speaking the truth about your exploits (which I am not questioning, I am sure you are being accurate). You still have my respect for those things, acting like an imbecile does not negate the good you have done. Conversely, however, the good you have done does not mean you can act like an imbecile with impunity. You still have to face the consequences of your actions. You are acting emotionally, you must face those consequences (another libertarian philosophical stance).

    I am not telling you how to run your life. I am advising you on communication because you suck at it in my opinion, and that has nothing to do with you serving the country or being a hero. It has to do with you being a rational person. You seem to suck as a rational thinker, the reasoning you base your atheism on is lost in your posts. IF you choose to ignore my advice, that is fine, it is your life. I am qualified to speak against your methods of communications and your manner and attitude because, again, this is my property. Also, I do not have people yelling about how I communicate, but you do, all over the place. Calm down, you will be a more effective person.

  • IndianaJazz:

    Hey Jon,
    If I may, I’d like to throw in a couple thoughts on the faith and politics discussion here. Specifically, I’d like to respond to a couple of comments.
    Mr. Davidson said, “As a moral and Christian man, I think that the government does have some responsibility in enforcing morality (thou shall not steal) in our society…and the Constitution Party reinforces that belief in a traditional Christian foundation for the country.” I have a response to both parts of this statement.
    First it would generally be agreed by all men that the government has a responsibility for enforcing some kind of morality, but the libertarian way of thinking most clearly crystallizes that responsibility. That is, the moral code enforced by a government should be based upon a uniform political philosophy, independent of the moral requirements of any particular theology. The political philosophy of libertarianism is founded on the principles of liberty and self-ownership, which creates a duty to enforce some degree of empirical negative liberty (the absence of forcible interference). Essentially all uniform principles of morality agreed upon across major theologies—such as “thou shalt not steal”—can be derived from and upheld through the enforcement of the philosophy of liberty. Many call these enforceable principles “natural rights,” “absolute truths,” or “fundamental truths.” Whatever they are termed, these principles constitute a general political and philosophical morality that grants government a contract of enforcement, while allowing maximum latitude for the living of one’s moral code based on any individual or group theology. The governmental enforcement of the liberty philosophy does not preclude social or economic enforcement by particular groups of a stricter morality based on theology.
    As to the second point on the Christian founding of the nation, I am a Christian man who would like to believe that this is true, but it is a statement to be examined more closely. While a majority of the founders may have identified themselves as Christians, there were quite a few that a Christian would not identify as such. A few of the founders were agnostic, several were Deists, including Jefferson, and quite a few were members of the Free-Mason tradition. While these are similar theologies and they are likely to agree on many important points, to say that they are the same is erroneous. This would be like saying that Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses are Christian. While some members of these similar sects may classify themselves as such, generally in an attempt to be more relate-able, they differ on foundational points of theology. These traditions have much in common and they harmonize well enough that an unschooled eye may be tempted to lump them all into the same class, but to do so would be an injustice to each theology. The advantage of the libertarian philosophy—which is largely derived from the principles of the founders, and certainly predicated upon their example—is that it promotes the harmony and basic ethics of all these traditions while preventing the state from becoming a purveyor of theology.
    Now I would like to respond to Blacksand who wrote, ‘”Do not let your politics and your faith get too intertwined” And I agree with that. But I think Im going the other way with it. Youre thinking “Separation of church and state” and Im thinking “Don’t let politics get in the way of faith.”’ (sic).The last two statements in quotes are in fact one and the same. There is a strange, perhaps intentional, paradigm shift that has taken place over the last sixty years or so in the legal and public understanding of the principle of separation of church and state. The term was actually coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter written in 1802. The original intent of the phrase, expressed in the letter and in the first Supreme Court case where it was quoted in 1878, was to indicate that the state should not interfere with the free expression of religious beliefs except in cases where such expression violated the natural rights of another. The letter actually reads, “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”, thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.” James Madison further expanded on the idea to explain that the separation was intended to allow religion to flourish which it may better do without promotion through legislation. Beginning in the late 1940s, the Supreme Court reversed its perspective on the phrase and through a series of opinions developed the contemporary public understanding of the phrase. It unfortunately has become a weapon for those who find a particular theology distasteful to try to suppress the voice of the offending theology by implying that any association of the expresser with the state implies promulgation on the part of the state. But this is a corruption of the phrase and the intention is in fact to prevent the interference of government or legislation with theology. I actually think that Thomas Paine put it best in his pamphlet that helped spark the American Revolution. In that eloquently written call to action, “Common Sense,” Paine wrote, “As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith.”

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